Rock the Crossbar: CROUCHY and Gerrard

Tuesday, May 30

CROUCHY and Gerrard

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Gerrin there Crouchy. Did Lampard play today? Twat.

55 Comments:

I think its here he must have perfected that celebration of his - Godawful! Anyway good win, pretty good performance which is more important than anything else. Many positives - Crouch, Gerrard who was excellent but annoyed me with his dive, Beckham, Joe Cole ... all in all delighted and feel good going into World Cup. Will post later in week re: the dilemma facing Sven in who should be in his first 11.

By WhatsupWheaton Simon, at 8:06 PM
Still hasn't come any closer to solving his holding midfield problem. Changed it at half time from Carraghar to Hargreaves. He will probably just end up saying forget about it and playing 4-4-2 with Crouch and Owen up front. Rest of the team is obvious then.
Robinson
Neville Rio Terry Cashley
Beckham Lampard Gerrard Cole
Crouch Rio

Its a pity because I think a manager like Mourinho could have made 4-5-1 work but Sven is completely confused at this point.

By TheBusbyBoy, at 9:46 PM
Crouch and Rio? Its late. I meant Crouch and Owen

By TheBusbyBoy, at 9:46 PM
If it were Maurinho then you might see Rio up front as he used to throw Huth up there!

By WhatsupWheaton Simon, at 10:40 PM
Need a holding midfielder , Johno. Lampard is shoite. Off him.

By Rich Hughes, at 11:17 PM
I thought Stevie was just avoiding that two-footed challenge coming over the ball. It's less a dive than it was a referee's decision to punish a defender who behaved recklessly. It was dangerous and Gerrard shouldn't be pilloried because he jumped out of harms way.

The penalty miss was worrying. That's Lamps, Becks, and Wee Mike now on a penalty miss hoodoo. I don't think there's sufficient nerve in the squad to survive a penalty shoot-out. Hopefully Sven's having a word with the squad and telling them that they have to score goals and there will be none of this eaking out a draw and then a shoot-out.

By gooner71, at 8:01 AM
I agree Steve - we have to find 5 penalty takers who can be relied upon and I cant name one! To be fair Lamps penalty wasnt that bad, low had, could have been wider but it wasnt bad. Gerrard however in a clear dive. See article.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/world_cup_2006/teams/england/5033004.stm

All in all though, very positive last night. Bring on Paraguay. I see us getting through the first round - and anyone in group A is crap so we should beat whoever there, although Germany in Munich is never easy. Quarters for us and hopefully more. America can sit back and cheer us when they go home early.

By WhatsupWheaton Simon, at 10:36 AM
"It's less a dive than it was a referee's decision to punish a defender who behaved recklessly."

Don't be talking shit. It was a dive and he got away with it. Fair play to him but don't tell me the ref was punishing the defender for putting in a rash tackle even though he missed. He fooled the ref pain and simple. good for him. I also loved the bbc guys view of "ignore the dive...look at the beautiful play leading up to it" nad "other countries do this to us so why should we not do it". Thats fine but if people are going to rip foreigners like Drogba and Ronaldo for diving then they need to hold English players to the same standards. If not, then just accept diving as part of the game and stop whining when it goes against you and making excuses when it goes for you.

By TheBusbyBoy, at 11:24 AM
Spot on John, I cant accept people whining abotu Drogba and then defending Stevie - Joga Bonita says he cheated and in truth I didnt mind seeing us miss the penalty because it should never have been awarded. I hate to win that way.

Read a good article today ripping the BBC punditry - you saw the Beeb's coverage John, was it awful?

http://www.football365.com/opinion/f365_opinion/story_186367.shtml

I will be there in 2 weeks to put up with it.

By WhatsupWheaton Simon, at 11:30 AM
Arsenal fans angry about diving is magic. Quick question - if he's just stood still and conact had been made, would it have been a pen?

By Rich Hughes, at 11:52 AM
Its nothing to do with Arsenal or even the fact he plays for Liverpool - you cant chastise any foreigners for diving if you arent willing to put your hand up and say the same about the Gerrard's, Owen's etc...
Ian Wright cant get up and defend it and say the foreigners all do it so we should too....I Personally I want to see it stamped out the game and was delighted Wenger finally saw someone (in a European final no less) and said "hey that's wrong".

Rich - a dive is when someone isnt touched but goes down like they have been. Its pretty clear. Picture Drogba doing it. Was it a rash challenge? No question but if I went to tackle you in the center circle and missed the ball and also missed you and fell on my arse, its not a free kick.

By WhatsupWheaton Simon, at 11:59 AM
Great rant. Let me repeat;
"Quick question - if he's just stood still and conact had been made, would it have been a pen?"

By Rich Hughes, at 12:06 PM
You're talking complete and utter bollocks when you criticize Gerrard's jump.

If Stevie hadn't jumped out of the way of that bloke, he might have been seriously injured. Is there now some sort of code that if you see a bloke leaving his feet, studs up, and charging into you, you aren't allowed to avoid it?

Because that's what he did. He avoided the contact. Referee thought (rightly) that the Magyar was guilty of a stupid and dangerous challenge. Good penalty decision.

That sort of over-the-ball, two footed challenge in the box should not only be a guaranteed penalty, but should also carry a yellow if the victim avoids the contact, red if he can't. Plain and simple because it's as dangerous a tackle as there is. And bloody awful technique from a professional of any ilk. If that's the height of defending, I'm still in with a chance of a US cap.

That Terry Butcher of all people was the most immediate complainer should have convinced you just as immediately that the Magyar was culpable there. If Butcher had to play these days, he'd be about as effective as those Belarus blokes that just charge over anyone. No wonder he'd side with a two footed challenge.

By gooner71, at 12:10 PM
Seen, Rich Hughes.

Exactly my point.

By gooner71, at 12:12 PM
If he had been caught it would be a pen. He wasnt caught - he in fact beat the man and then fell over instead of taking a shot at goal. DIVE. CHEAT. JOGA BONITA. Did you watch the incident or phone up Ian Wright in asking for ways to justify why some dives are good and others are bad? Gerrard was smart and jumped out the way of a bad tackle - then - he went down. Should have shot at goal.

By WhatsupWheaton Simon, at 12:14 PM
Did he have time to get his feet right for a shot, or was he just more concerened about being able to play football ever again?

By Rich Hughes, at 12:15 PM
Absolute cock. Did you see Gerrards dive? Its was a dive to win a penalty. Not a dive to avoid a tackle. You can't have your cake and eat it too. If you are going to avoid a dangerous tackle, you can do it without diving like Gerrard did. You don't get to avoid contact and win a penalty.

Dimon - the bcc pundits were just woeful. I would gladly watch on US TV before watching those muppets. Will will the bbc learn that the best players don't make the best pundits? They spent most of the half saying Lennon needed to come on for Beckham, and Beckham created both goals withing 10 minutes of the restart.

By TheBusbyBoy, at 12:19 PM
Did see it. Repeatedly, fortunately so that I can back my opinion that he jumped to avoid a dangerous tackle. Sure he dove over the contact, but that's a legitimate dive.

That wasn't Drogba or Pires going over at the least bit of contact. It wasn't even Owen falling over to beat the Argies at their own game. It was an injury avoiding dive, jump, leap, whatever you want to call it.

If Gerrard had been knobbled for the WC, you'd be singing a different tune.

By gooner71, at 12:20 PM
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

By gooner71, at 12:20 PM
"That sort of over-the-ball, two footed challenge in the box should not only be a guaranteed penalty, but should also carry a yellow if the victim avoids the contact, red if he can't."

Actually those kind of tackles (two-footed tackles within the box) are pretty rare. Usually reserved for the very worst defenders.

Am I to take it that you are suggesting that a two-footed tackle outside the box is somehow less serious then? Because those are much more common.

By TheBusbyBoy, at 12:23 PM
"Did he have time to get his feet right for a shot, or was he just more concerened about being able to play football ever again? "

Sniff... - it wasnt the worst tackle I have ever seen, a clumsy studs up one yes but I have seen far worse. When Drogba tumbles next year you cant then slag him off. It doesnt go both ways. Gerrard beat defenders lunge and pretended he hadnt - keyword: Pretended. Simulation if you will - cheating. I would say the same in the World Cup Steve. People cant expect diving to go away when they are willing to defend their own who do it. Take a stand or at least say hey he dived but I am okay with it because I tolerate diving. When Reina got sent off for Drogba's ridiculousness it was unfair and wrong. Drogba's incident was worse than Gerrard's or was it? Gerrard 'won' a penalty in a level game, Drogba got a man sent off in a game where the result was done.

By WhatsupWheaton Simon, at 12:30 PM
"Referee thought (rightly) that the Magyar was guilty of a stupid and dangerous challenge."

So you honestly believe that the referee knew that there was no contact but gave the penalty anyway? You actually believe that?

Simon is right. Next discussion please.

By TheBusbyBoy, at 12:33 PM
You mean Robben right Simon?

By TheBusbyBoy, at 12:34 PM
" Its was a dive to win a penalty. Not a dive to avoid a tackle."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma

Thanks.

By Rich Hughes, at 12:35 PM
Having read your arguments I see the error of my ways. SHAME ON GERRARD FOR PROTECTING HIS ANKLES.
If you can't land on your feet ready to play, get hit and and take the insurance and a media Job, Gerrard you scoundrel.

By Rich Hughes, at 12:37 PM
Ok. Tell us about this "alternate option" then stato.

By TheBusbyBoy, at 12:37 PM
Busby,

Correct. Much more common outside of the area because outside of the area, it's simply vicious and bad technique. Inside, that vicious and unprofessional act is compounded by stupidity. Give the defender a compass and an IQ test to go along with his red card if you're feeling compassionate

Gooners Law -- two footed in the box with no contact, yellow and a pen. Outside of the box, no contact, yellow and a free

Two footed, in the box, contact, red and a pen. Outside, red and a free.

Clear enough?

By gooner71, at 12:40 PM
I agree John - he beat the man Rich and then went down. Many a Pires dive is the same way, beats the tackle and then goes over. So Rich - if he avoids a bad tackle what should he do next, Gerrard jumped out the way of it... check... then he should what? Fall over to let the ref know a dodgy tackle was made or should he shoot at goal having done the hard work? What would you do if you avoid a tackle? Would you fall over and arch your back on the way down or would you have a pop? I know what I would do.
A dive is a dive is a dive. Eboue dived, Drogba dives, Gerrard clearly dives. Put your hand up and say hey he won a penalty and I dont mind because its part of the game - dont sit and say well that dive is okay because he avoided a bad tackle - HE WAS NEVER TOUCHED! Again I make bad tackle and miss the player and ball while the player keeps good possession , its NOT a free kick. Tell me if it is?

By WhatsupWheaton Simon, at 12:43 PM
You're right John, it was Robben who Liverpool fans who moaned endlessly about for cheating. And they were right to.

By WhatsupWheaton Simon, at 12:45 PM
Finchey

Thats nice that you have devised your own laws. I will stick to FIFAs ones if you don't mind.

So you believe the ref gave the penalty aware that there was no contact but punished the defender for being stupid and dangerous?

By TheBusbyBoy, at 12:46 PM
I believe that the ref applied Gooners Law pretty effectively.

He saw stupid, technically benighted Magyar defender leave his feet and aim at Gerrard within the area. Whether he was positioned to see or not, he deemed that whether there was contact or not, it was nontheless dangerous play, in the box, and worthy of a penalty.

That's how I interpret what the ref did. Fine job. No complaints.

If you're accusing Gerrard of habitually diving, fair enough. But I need another example because this juror aquits Gerrard for this one.

You're also right that I won't be convinced otherwise. Let's move on.

By gooner71, at 1:00 PM
I never accused Gerrard of habitually diving. I don't think he is. I don't even think I am as passionately against diving as Simon seems to be as I think it all evens out in the end.

Personally I think the ref thought there was contact, just like I did when I saw it live, and gave the penalty on that basis. You are giving him too much credit I think or maybe its the blinkers.

I just happen to think that Gerrard did a lot more than just get out of the way of the tackle. It was a flop and a deliberate attempt to fool the ref which he did. It was a nothing game anyway and not worth all this effort but I think you are setting a dangerous precedent for yourself if you are saying that diving in the box is ok if the tackle you are avoiding is not a perfect one.

By TheBusbyBoy, at 1:08 PM
Let's use some set theory.

You bifurcate 2 possibilities, which implicitly you make mutually exclusive. (can’t have your cake and eat it)

Dive to win a Penalty.
Dive to avoid injury

which would suggest

That [Dive to win a Penalty] n [Dive to avoid injury] = 0

However, P [any dive wins a penalty ] >0

so [Dive to win a Penalty] is a superset of [Dive to avoid injury]...

so there is no dichotomy as you suggested in the ‘either/or’ sense.

you offer either X or Y
when its either X or X and Y

So if you Dive to avoid an injury you do in fact have your cake and eat it.
You don’t get injured, you do get a pen.

But not quite..
because the devil is in the details - in this cause causation and effect. Although any dive CAN win a penalty, not every dive is to win a penalty. In fact the term dive is confounded.
We are using a word that has two meanings interchangeably.

Dive : simulazione
And
Dive : To fall head down through the air.

Note one carries malicious forethought and one doesn’t.

Dive to avoid injury (self preservation) is not actually a choice – it’s an instinctive reaction (just like blinking).

Johno muses..” If you are going to avoid a dangerous tackle, you can do it without diving like Gerrard did” Yes you can, but if it’s instinctive, you’re going to do what you’re going to do…

Here’s my 2 penneth – it was a pen irregardless of contact.

In the words of Law 12, any act that is committed "in a manner...careless, reckless or using excessive force." is a foul. Contact is not a prerequisite of ‘reckless’. So it’s a Pen as so as the gut launches himself. Gerrard could stay still, try and shoot, simulate teleport, whatever, its still a foul and its still a pen. Were not talking about a little trip or a nudge, were talking about two footed, studs up, career ending ballistic special. Now there’s your villain.

By Rich Hughes, at 1:15 PM
Actually, I am reminded of the dive Rooney took over Sol Campbell's leg last season in Old Trafford. That was a case of a defender sticking out his leg in a stupid, clumsy manner, a cardinal sin for a defender, and a striker taking advantage of it by jumping over/into it. Both were instances of bad defending exploited by the forward.
Was that a penalty? Or is this logic only reserved for two-footed lunges?

By TheBusbyBoy, at 1:19 PM
was there self preservation?

By Rich Hughes, at 1:19 PM
While we are in the business of bringing up laws:

Decision 5
Any simulating action anywhere on the field, which is intended to deceive the referee, must be sanctioned as unsporting behaviour.

By TheBusbyBoy, at 1:21 PM
Where in the rule-book does it say simulation is permissible if it is a form of self preservation?

By TheBusbyBoy, at 1:24 PM
"Where in the rule-book does it say simulation is permissible if it is a form of self preservation? "

re-read what you've written. Think about what the words "simulation" and "self preservation" mean.

Do you think one might be automatic and the other pre meditated?

By Rich Hughes, at 1:26 PM
When you ask "was there self preservation?" I am assuming you are asking "Did Rooney avoid injury to himself by diving"? If I am misinterpreting that let me know.

If that is what you mean, then I take it you are suggesting that diving is ok if the goal is to avoid injury and not to deceive the referee?

By TheBusbyBoy, at 1:34 PM
Again - I suspect some conflation on "Diving".

Let's take the null hypothesis - do you think someone has to get clattered for it to be a pen?

I think if you avoid injurey from a reckless challange, that's fine. And if a challenge is reckless then under law 12 its a pen, anyhoo.

By Rich Hughes, at 1:37 PM
Well personally I find that when somebody is coming in to clatter me there are much quicker ways to get out of the way than the kind of dive which Gerrard pulled off yesterday. You probably have not played the game in a long, long time though Rich.

By TheBusbyBoy, at 1:41 PM
last night, 2 games..

although, that's a great
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/poisoning-the-well.html
(my favorite ad hominem)

My favorite would be “how can Benetiz be a top couch, he wasn't an international?”

There’s a correlation between personal attacks and winning an argument. It’s negative.

You’re a rock Johno, you probably don’t flinch before contact nor blink when stuff approaches your eyes. For sissy old Rich instinct takes over and I try to get out of the way. Now my large frame and slow reflexes probably mean I won’t, but I try. How I do it I don’t have much say over – and I suspect we all do it different ways.

By Rich Hughes, at 1:48 PM
As well as a top couch, he can't be a top coach...

*sigh*

By Rich Hughes, at 1:49 PM
Not a personal attack. Its just that, in the midst of your set theory, you seem to have abandoned common sense about what happened last night.

1)Defender came out with bad tackle
2)Gerrard whipped it by him with great quick feet
3)Gerrard chose to hit the ground when already past him.

If you really believe that:
a)The ref knew there was no contact but gave the penalty regardless because it was a clumsy tackle.
b)Gerrard fell that way in order to avoid injury

well then thats fine. You are entitled to your opinion. I do wonder though whether you would put up the same argument if that is Ronaldinho side-stepping a John Terry lunge?

By TheBusbyBoy, at 2:00 PM
Oh, and gooner71, ask and you will receive:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Prcxxr4bJ3E&search=gerrard%20dive

By TheBusbyBoy, at 2:04 PM
If its a reckless challenge then its a pen - for us / against us, for you / against you.

'Common sense' - clearly not that common as only 2 of 4 have it..

By Rich Hughes, at 2:04 PM
PS - Bolton - it was a dive. Bolt on. (gerrit?)

By Rich Hughes, at 2:05 PM
Ok gentlemen. Heading out for the night. Its been fun.

Heres the link in case any of you have not seen it. The dive is about 50 seconds in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmIDBOt6x7I&search=gerrard%20hungary

I have a feeling that more than 50% of the posters on this blog would think it was a dive but maybe not.

Adios

By TheBusbyBoy, at 2:12 PM
there are 4 on this thread.

By Rich Hughes, at 2:14 PM
Yes but I said blog

By TheBusbyBoy, at 2:21 PM
you also said adios.

By Rich Hughes, at 2:23 PM
ps it was a dive

By TheBusbyBoy, at 2:25 PM
yes definite dive - inspired find that on Youtube Johnno - the Platoon diving is sheer class. I watched Gerrard's England dive again and even miserable Scouse Lawro says Gerrard is never caught! Its air Gerrard - the classic diver's pose. Only blemish on an excellent performance from him.

By WhatsupWheaton Simon, at 2:27 PM
Haha.

Though for the day.

"can you win something you already have"

By Rich Hughes, at 2:28 PM
Great site loved it alot, will come back and visit again.
»

By Anonymous, at 1:46 PM

Rock the Crossbar

Tuesday, May 30

CROUCHY and Gerrard

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